Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 18, 2011, 03:42 PM // 15:42

new screens with Ebon Battle Standard of Honor + Intensity. Mmmmm...

EBSOH gives +15 to all the primary damage packets and the 'splash' packets from Intensity are 50% of that damage, so EBSOH boosts the Intensity damage by another 7.5.

ebsoh + intensity + rodgort's is 135 + 67 + 42 (burning) = 244 damage to all nearby foes with one spell.

ebsoh + intensity + phoenix is 127 +105 + 63 = 295 damage to all adjacent with one spell.

You will get brutal spikes with multiple elementalists in the team.

Essence Snow · Feb 18, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

new screens with Ebon Battle Standard of Honor + Intensity. Mmmmm...

EBSOH gives +15 to all the primary damage packets and the 'splash' packets from Intensity are 50% of that damage, so EBSOH boosts the Intensity damage by another 7.5.

ebsoh + intensity + rodgort's is 135 + 67 + 42 (burning) = 244 damage to all nearby foes with one spell.

ebsoh + intensity + phoenix is 127 +105 + 63 = 295 damage to all adjacent with one spell.

You will get brutal spikes with multiple elementalists in the team.

Remember you need to test these in HM on actually foes with boosted amor lvls. It changes those numbers significantly and will make you realize "Intensity" sorta blows. To get any decent dmg out of it u are forced to target the lowest al....which in itself creates all sorts of other issues.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 18, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

There's more than that though - you're giving up more than just a slot on your bar.

To use Intensity, you need to go Elemental. This in itself is a pretty serious drawback, because AP is simply more powerful at the moment. After that, you need to invest significantly into energy management. Intensity is getting used once every 10s, and it's a skill to which you don't restore energy from Attunement / Aura of Restoration. This would probably force at least the Attunement + Aura / Elemental Lord + Glyph, which significantly cuts down on your 8 free slots.

If you want to use it though, off the top of my head this is what I'd start with:

12 + 1 + 3 = 16 Air
12 + 1 = 13 Energy Storage

Invoke Lightning [E]
Chain Lightning
Lightning Orb
Intensity
Air Attunement
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Elemental Lord

Having to use Elemental Lord is a serious statement of what the build lacks ...

Anyway it's 70 AoE damage at best every 10s, don't know if that's worth it.

PS: Lol ANet buffed Rits.

Dude it's 5 energy... not a big deal, especially for elementalists.

As far as proper usage goes, I would definitely stick with large-packet large-aoe damage like Rodgort's Invocation, Deep Freeze, etc. Invoke Lightning is nowhere near as good because it hits 2 additional targets instead of ALL additional targets. Armor penetration is not enough to make up for this.

People used to take BUH to get +25% additional damage, and this is twice as strong. Granted, BUH usually lasted for more than one spell but it didn't last that long... this version of Intensity lends itself to huge initial spikes while being useless for DoT spells, sliver armor, etc.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 18, 2011, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Remember you need to test these in HM on actually foes with boosted amor lvls. It changes those numbers significantly and will make you realize "Intensity" sorta blows. To get any decent dmg out of it u are forced to target the lowest al....which in itself creates all sorts of other issues.

elementalist damage has always been affected by armor, this new version of Intensity doesn't change that. bring cracked armor and EBSoH.

re: targeting the lowest AL, you are already doing that when you target monks and mesmers and elementalists... so again nothing has changed. You get maximum benefit from Intensity by doing the things you were already doing anyway.

Mouse at Large · Feb 18, 2011, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

elementalist damage has always been affected by armor, this new version of Intensity doesn't change that.<snip>

And there, in a nutshell, you have described why this reworking of Intensity fails.

Thank you

Essence Snow · Feb 18, 2011, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

elementalist damage has always been affected by armor, this new version of Intensity doesn't change that. bring cracked armor and EBSoH.

re: targeting the lowest AL, you are already doing that when you target monks and mesmers and elementalists... so again nothing has changed. You get maximum benefit from Intensity by doing the things you were already doing anyway.

I know that al reduction is nothing new...just saying that the battle isles testing doesn't accurately test the skill for HM.

My point about targeting low al...is basically this....to get any decent dmg from "intesity" one has to use mutiple prereqs (if u will), so if you get rupted casting your major dmg skill (long casting times) going for that monk you have just wasted mutiple skills trying to get meh aoe dmg. On top of that once the foes with low al are dead, intensity becomes even more laughable.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 18, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

new screens with Ebon Battle Standard of Honor + Intensity. Mmmmm...

EBSOH gives +15 to all the primary damage packets and the 'splash' packets from Intensity are 50% of that damage, so EBSOH boosts the Intensity damage by another 7.5.

ebsoh + intensity + rodgort's is 135 + 67 + 42 (burning) = 244 damage to all nearby foes with one spell.

ebsoh + intensity + phoenix is 127 +105 + 63 = 295 damage to all adjacent with one spell.

You will get brutal spikes with multiple elementalists in the team.

max damage so far: 170 + 85 + 42 = 297 to all nearby. XD
this is with 20 fire magic (15 fire + glyph of EP, Double Dragon, Elemental Lord) this is a hell of a spike if you have more than one character doing this. (e.g. glaiveway, searing flames, etc.) can anyone beat this?

Mouse at Large · Feb 18, 2011, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Here's another thought...

Obsidian Flame @ 16 earth does 116 armour ignoring damage iirc.

With intensity say being generous and hitting an extra 5 for 50% - that adds 290 damage.

Total damage = 406

every 12 seconds

giving a dps of 34 (and exhaustion).

Whoopee

*edit* forget all the above - OF doesn't do elemental damage so no effect at all.

Double whoopee.

Kunder · Feb 18, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

max damage so far: 170 + 85 + 42 = 297 to all nearby. XD
this is with 20 fire magic (15 fire + glyph of EP, Double Dragon, Elemental Lord) this is a hell of a spike if you have more than one character doing this. (e.g. glaiveway, searing flames, etc.) can anyone beat this?

In other news, just Searing Heat + EBSoH does 317 damage total to all nearby. It still sucks in PvE because armor reduces that to about 50-70.

LifeInfusion · Feb 18, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Lightning orb. That's all. Lightning Surge doesn't push out Cracked armor so you won't get the damage output you want. Rodgort/Invoke are other candidates. Searing Flames I don't see this helping since you need cracked armor and once every 10 seconds is barely anything.

Currently testing:
16 air
9 energy storage (for -15 on GoLE)
10 deadly arts

AP
Intensity
Orb
Sin support
Glyph of Lesser Energy (for Orb+Sin support)
FH!
Chain Lightning or w/e air magic skill you want
Aura of restor

Maybe you can do Elemental Lord/Glyph of Elemental Power to push the "spike" of Intensity. I'd rather have deep wound and -70-80ish damage and sin support (100ish).

Testing elemental damage in Isle of the Nameless is pointless. In reality you push out 85 to 100 from orb = 40ish nearby aoe on Intensity.

I think the real potential is on Mind Blast-rodgort's in normal mode.

Jeydra · Feb 18, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Dude it's 5 energy... not a big deal, especially for elementalists.

As far as proper usage goes, I would definitely stick with large-packet large-aoe damage like Rodgort's Invocation, Deep Freeze, etc. Invoke Lightning is nowhere near as good because it hits 2 additional targets instead of ALL additional targets. Armor penetration is not enough to make up for this.

People used to take BUH to get +25% additional damage, and this is twice as strong. Granted, BUH usually lasted for more than one spell but it didn't last that long... this version of Intensity lends itself to huge initial spikes while being useless for DoT spells, sliver armor, etc.

To support Rodgort's, a 25e spell, is going to be difficult. Also although Invoke "only" hits 2 additional targets, Intensity hits them all, so it doesn't matter that much. Elementalists don't get more energy regen than anyone else, so the 5e matters (for the same reason using EBSoH etc on an Elementalist is tough work).

Agree that testing Elemental damage in the Isle of the Nameless is meaningless.

@LifeInfusion - with AP and GoLE, you can probably go without AoR. I'll give my standard AP bar a try, replacing YMLAD with Intensity. A bit of lost spike power and tactical uses, but maybe a bit more AoE damage.

LifeInfusion · Feb 18, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

AoR is because I never run more than one monk and I run blessed so I need a cheap enchant.

WarcryOfTruth · Feb 18, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

This might be just thinking too much, but if you use Intensity + Assassin Support, while under Greater Conflagration, would it effect the Assassin's attacks? It is YOUR spell, and it WOULD BE elemental damage... just thinking...

Jeydra · Feb 18, 2011, 05:25 PM // 17:25

After preliminary testing, several thoughts:

Intensity's 10s recharge isn't that bad. After all, you won't always have clustered foes to use it on (unless you carefully aggro every mob, which I'm usually not careful enough to do). It can also be pre-cast, although it triggering on the very next Elementalist spell means you can't pre-cast it for exactly when you its effect is greatest.

AP recharges Intensity, but on AP bars YMLAD is way superior. As in immensely superior. YMLAD lets you stomp monsters one by one; Intensity requires you to cast to get the effect. YMLAD does more damage, YMLAD has other tactical uses, YMLAD can actually be used against single-target foes / foes not clustered.

Intensity works best with quick-casting spells. Invoke fits this bill. Unfortunately there's a major lack of quick-casting (1s or quicker) AoE spells around. Aside from Invoke and Liquid Flame, the other non-elite spells all deal much less damage and so benefit far less from Intensity. Searing Flames is an exception, but you need the targets to be burning before you can use Intensity.

I tried out my original idea. It worked decently, although I'm quite confident that when push comes to shove, AP is still superior.

I'm extremely tired, will think more about this next time.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 18, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46

@ jeydra:
25e for casting rodgort's invocation is easily dealt with and elementalists have been doing this for years... auspicious, GoLE, fire attunement, mind blast... you need a much better argument. If you like AP that just makes things better since it helps with both energy and recharge. re: YMLAD, I would suggest that if you are using elementalists for single target damage you should rethink your strategy. There is nothing an ele can do vs. single targets that physical attackers can't do better. the elementalists' only strength is AoE damage. (i'm not counting broken stuff like ER prot)

@ kunder:
searing heat and tenai's heat give you that damage over 5s. intensity + rodgorts gives you that kind of damage instantly and without scatter. in the "let's fix eles" thread I posted a lot of stuff about DoTAoE spells combined with EBSoH, but Intensity doesn't help those spells enough to be worth using in those kinds of builds imo. also the recharge on most DoTAoE is terrible so you'll have to use EBSOW, AP, and/or Echo get good use out of it.

@ all: it looks like the spike potential from Intensity could be pretty huge. Instead of complaining about how all ele damage is affected by armor it seems much more productive to find ways to get around this problem. if you want to wait until Anet makes all elementalist damage armor ignoring then good luck with that...

just for example let's consider a team with three elementalists with intensity.
a fire ele with rodgort's invocation,
a water ele with deep freeze,
an earth ele with earthquake.
assume that these guys have weaken armor and EBSoH, and are all at 15 in their respective elements.

the first salvo of spells from these three will deliver the following to all nearby:
(135 + 67) fire damage + 42 burning damage over 3s
(115 + 57) earth damage
(100 + 50) cold damage

That is 566 damage (including burning) plus mass KD and snaring... from the first salvo. Yes some of this damage is affected by armor, but it is still a huge amount of damage. Add in a 4th and 5th damage dealer (perhaps a FoC necro and an Esurge mesmer) and I think it would be possible to insta-kill entire groups if they were balled up.

Bandwagon · Feb 18, 2011, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Wait... ebon vanguard sniper support + Greater Conflagration ftw? Someone test if this works.

Can't see anyway else to take advantage of this though. Anet, raise it to 100% and then we will talk.

Doesn't work, just tried it out, testing both non head shot and head shot damage, it does not even trigger intensity.

Timing is probably the culprit, the skill intensity might only trigger when the unmodified damage is elemental.

FoxBat · Feb 18, 2011, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

@ jeydra:
There is nothing an ele can do vs. single targets that physical attackers can't do better. the elementalists' only strength is AoE damage. (i'm not counting broken stuff like ER prot)

Eles don't have a strength in HM that isn't ether renewal. Their AoE is crap, even mesmers outclass them, that's why they are using AP +PvE stuff. Physicals also have alot of ways to output strong adjacent AoE too.

UnChosen · Feb 18, 2011, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

@ jeydra:
25e for casting rodgort's invocation is easily dealt with and elementalists have been doing this for years... auspicious, GoLE, fire attunement, mind blast... you need a much better argument. If you like AP that just makes things better since it helps with both energy and recharge. re: YMLAD, I would suggest that if you are using elementalists for single target damage you should rethink your strategy. There is nothing an ele can do vs. single targets that physical attackers can't do better. the elementalists' only strength is AoE damage. (i'm not counting broken stuff like ER prot)

@ kunder:
searing heat and tenai's heat give you that damage over 5s. intensity + rodgorts gives you that kind of damage instantly and without scatter. in the "let's fix eles" thread I posted a lot of stuff about DoTAoE spells combined with EBSoH, but Intensity doesn't help those spells enough to be worth using in those kinds of builds imo. also the recharge on most DoTAoE is terrible so you'll have to use EBSOW, AP, and/or Echo get good use out of it.

@ all: it looks like the spike potential from Intensity could be pretty huge. Instead of complaining about how all ele damage is affected by armor it seems much more productive to find ways to get around this problem. if you want to wait until Anet makes all elementalist damage armor ignoring then good luck with that...

just for example let's consider a team with three elementalists with intensity.
a fire ele with rodgort's invocation,
a water ele with deep freeze,
an earth ele with earthquake.
assume that these guys have weaken armor and EBSoH, and are all at 15 in their respective elements.

the first salvo of spells from these three will deliver the following to all nearby:
(135 + 67) fire damage + 42 burning damage over 3s
(115 + 57) earth damage
(100 + 50) cold damage

That is 566 damage (including burning) plus mass KD and snaring... from the first salvo. Yes some of this damage is affected by armor, but it is still a huge amount of damage. Add in a 4th and 5th damage dealer (perhaps a FoC necro and an Esurge mesmer) and I think it would be possible to insta-kill entire groups if they were balled up.

Outrageously optimistic damage...

135 with Fire?
115 with Earth?
100 with COLD?

How the **** did you manage to get those numbers when Rodgorts at 16 Fire Magic only does 127 damage to 60 armor targets....

Don't tell me, its probably something like an entire bar of attribute buffs + consumables just to support one skill.

Maybe against Isle dummies but its a totally different story to HM mobs (No, newbie areas like Ascalon HM doesn't count).

Jeydra · Feb 19, 2011, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

@ jeydra:
25e for casting rodgort's invocation is easily dealt with and elementalists have been doing this for years... auspicious, GoLE, fire attunement, mind blast... you need a much better argument. If you like AP that just makes things better since it helps with both energy and recharge. re: YMLAD, I would suggest that if you are using elementalists for single target damage you should rethink your strategy. There is nothing an ele can do vs. single targets that physical attackers can't do better. the elementalists' only strength is AoE damage. (i'm not counting broken stuff like ER prot)

Mind Blast is quite weak in PvE, and so is Auspicious (so now you not only have to put up with the 2 seconds to cast Rodgort's, you also need to wait another 1.75s to cast Auspicious ... ?). AP is rather awkward with Rodgort's in my experience, you spend a lot more time casting GoLE than otherwise. And aside from ER prot, there's pretty much nothing else an Elementalist can do (that matters) that other professions can't do better, so I'm not getting your point.

It's also already possible to mass kill an entire group if they're balled up, don't get your point there too.

Kunder · Feb 19, 2011, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

all: it looks like the spike potential from Intensity could be pretty huge. Instead of complaining about how all ele damage is affected by armor it seems much more productive to find ways to get around this problem. if you want to wait until Anet makes all elementalist damage armor ignoring then good luck with that...

The thing is, you aren't 'getting around' the problem. You are powering through it. To have a build that deals 100 damage (what I would consider good/workable for eles) against enemies in HM, you need a build that does 300-400 base damage per spell in NM. You just can't get that, and if you could Anet would nerf it within a week because NM would be too easy (perish the thought).